woootbm's YT channel: hard critiques on RPG Maker games

[TheAM-Dol]

@woootbm first, I would be careful about accepting games provided to you through comments. The guy in your comments doesn't sound like a bot, but still just be careful with that stuff - make sure they are providing a link that goes to a site with at least some protections and public comments on it (such as Steam or Itch). If they send you a personal cloud drive link, I would not download it - for your own safety.
Also, I think you should stick with your theme of original games and commercial games. Even if Lisa is more niche then say... fan games based around popular musicians and DC comic heroes...I think it will still run into the trappings of most fan games (though, maybe that's an interesting topic to discuss on your video )

edit:
also, p.s.
there's something about the thumbnail that just makes me lose it. I can hear the inflection in my head, "What if the Witcher was a loooooooser"

---

Now, it seems the discussion around remakes has lost it's nuance here. Since this was somewhat stirred up by me, I feel like I should at least refocus this a little bit:

As with most things, there is always an exception to the rule.
As woootbm mentioned near the end of his video, I think there are 2 core reasons that might merit remaking an old game:

• A noticeably technical improvement over the original
• A noticeable growth in skill, knowledge, and execution

From an outsiders point of view, going from VX Ace to MV is...not much. It's basically the same. Now, if it was going from RM 2000/2003 to MV perhaps there might be a reason. Likewise, I could say that possibly going from VX Ace to Unite might be a worthwhile step up in technical improvement for the game.
However, it doesn't really do a lot of good to - say - buy RM2k in 2019 (as your first forray into gamedev and/or the RM engines), finish your game in 2022, then buy MV/MZ in 2023 and start making a remake of the first game your built in the engine. Building new games instead of just remaking the single game does a lot of things for you: It grows your knowledge more quickly, it also casts a wider net. So if you are someone (for example the dev in this video) who is trying to capitalize on your games, then finding success is important. You don't want to keep casting the same small net to capture the audience because eventually your going to fish that niche dry. I think this video captures that point well: The first game had pretty good sales, but then the remake no one gave a damn about. (There's also the whole discussion around the removal of Green Light and the move towards Direct, but) I feel like if all those posts on his store page were about a new game from him instead of a remake from him, at least some of his older audience might have cared more - especially when the remake looks like the same game but now with widescreen support.

Concerning @RCXGaming , I think you actually don't really fall under this umbrella. When I say "remakes" I am really referring to games that have already been released and considered "finished". I know technically your game has had a public release as it was originally a game jam game, but the version you are working on is a full game which has only had a beta release and therefore I don't really consider it a "finished game".
Although rare, it's not unheard of for even AAA studios to abandon an engine mid-development because it's not meeting their needs, and so I sort of see you changing engines being similar to this situation. The engine you used was too limiting and not meeting your needs, so you ported your work to a new engine so that when the game is finished it better meets the expectations of your customers.

 

[woootbm]

Also, I think you should stick with your theme of original games and commercial games.

You've convinced me. I'm turning him down!



But seriously, I think I got excited to have another submission. I've always been wary of fan games. And this one is a fan game of an RM game?! He could literally just make the same game but with different words.

Don't worry, though. I've actually worked as a guy who had to deal with the fallout of phishing scams and the like in a past life.

Concerning @RCXGaming I think you actually don't really fall under this umbrella. When I say "remakes" I am really referring to games that have already been released and considered "finished". I know technically your game has had a public release as it was originally a game jam game, but the version you are working on is a full game which has only had a beta release and therefore I don't really consider it a "finished game".
Although rare, it's not unheard of for even AAA studios to abandon an engine mid-development because it's not meeting their needs

This is true. And it's actually pretty common in the triple A space (especially when Epic releases a new Unreal engine), you just don't always hear about it. Although usually that's because it's early enough in development that it isn't as big of an issue.

It sounds like @RCXGaming does have pretty good cause to "remake." Although this is more similar to recovering lost work. Looking at The Albino Hunter's discussion boards, it seems like they should have made this decision as well based on all the crashes and bugs. But they chose to get that $$$ and release it anyway, tsk tsk.

also, p.s.
there's something about the thumbnail that just makes me lose it. I can hear the inflection in my head, "What if the Witcher was a loooooooser"

Ah, ha! I got you!

 

[TheAM-Dol]

I think I got excited to have another submission

Take it from me, they'll come if you keep doing what you are doing. I still get excited to receive submissions too, like the week before I received 3 steam keys (and will be playing them this weekend) ...but I mean, I guess that just sort of drives my point home: they'll come. Keep your presence available here, make sure your accessible for people to contact you, and just keep making enjoyable videos like you have been.

It's worth noting, a lot of my views come from external sources, primarily Itch, and I believe this is because I link my video there. If you don't already leave a written review on the games you play with a link to your video, I think it's a good idea to help get some initial traction (not that I get a lot of views either, but I mean, relative for a small channel, I feel pretty successful.)
The one thing that helps me as well is that every time I stream I play multiple games, which means I am leaving multiple reviews all linking back to my video. Obviously (going back to what I said in my previous post) casting a wider net.
Something worth thinking about is how to maybe try to cast a wider net with your videos. If you are going doing 1 review of a game every two weeks, it may reduce the chances of getting more views and therefore more people wanting to submit games. I realize editing videos and making a schedule with Tony may be tough, but maybe take some time to see if you can't figure out a more efficient way to try to do 1 review a week. Think about it No need to make changes now, but maybe you'll have a shower epiphany on adjusting format to allow for more video output.

 

[bgillisp]

I do think one other issue that may have occurred here is the original game came out in 2015 when about anything on Steam could get about 100,000 sales if you managed to get the game on there. The remake came out in 2021 though in a much tougher market, and if nothing was changed at all besides higher resolution it would be a really hard sell.

Heck even when AAA games remake their games its a hard sell to get me to play it. I'm really picky about paying for a game 2x. My copy of Persona 4 works on the PS2 why again do I want to buy it again on the PC? But sometimes it can work with a really popular title. But for indies, not sure it would be worth it in the long run.

 

[woootbm]

@bgillisp Yeah, this exact point comes up in the video. Although since I didn't realize at the time that they must have gotten through Greenlight and that's maybe an indication of generated interest, it still would have been a lot easier to get noticed before Direct. Especially when you put your game on sale for $0.19 or do Humble Bundle stuff.

New point of discussion: I've been talking with Tony over some stuff thinking about format and comments made by Simple Gaming and TheAM-Dol and such. The idea is I should edit less overall because what I usually find is that I can (relatively) quickly cut out like ~20 minutes, but then I spend hours editing out another 4-10 minutes. At the same time, we clearly seem to feel rushed because we've always got it in the back of our minds that we want to make the videos shorter. It seems like we're doing ourselves a disservice and it's not really that big of a shift in video duration anyway. The concept has always been longform and it makes no sense to try to stuff it into shorter and shorter videos.

I'm considering just doing that first pass of editing to hit the big stuff but then not the nickel-and-diming trying to chase some ideal length. At the same time, we're gonna slow down a bit so we talk about each bit and don't have frantic overlap. Maybe we can also make bigger cuts because I won't have to worry about comments bleeding into each other so that we can present just the parts worth talking about and have less of us being like, "This is taking too long!" because we were making a point while nothing notable was on screen (like how in Radolf I cut out like 20 minutes of grinding).

TLDR: the end result should be the videos are like 20-40 minutes longer, but less rushed feeling. But that also means you'll hear me saying "Uh" a lot more

 

[bgillisp]

That is true! There was a dev here who said they made $10,000 from Steam in around 2015 or so, and they did it by shoving their game in about every bundle that existed.

On the edits, yeah I'd not spend that kind of time for that little time saved. Viewers can skip ahead too if they wish.

 

[woootbm]

Two reviews in a row! Wowee!



This week we cover @Cythera 's game, Origin Hunt! It's a little bit longer than the last couple videos, but still under 2 hours, hey! Now we have that much more time to ramble about things like "half-bred" versus "half-breed."

Will this finally be the game to defeat Dungeon Rummage - Tiqee's Escape? Tune in to find out!

Speaking of @SGHarlekin , we're gonna try to get his game jam game covered next week (if all goes well). Three reviews in a row! Wooo!

 

[RCXGaming]

Two reviews in a row! Wowee!



This week we cover @Cythera 's game, Origin Hunt! It's a little bit longer than the last couple videos, but still under 2 hours, hey! Now we have that much more time to ramble about things like "half-bred" versus "half-breed."

Will this finally be the game to defeat Dungeon Rummage - Tiqee's Escape? Tune in to find out!

Speaking of @SGHarlekin , we're gonna try to get his game jam game covered next week (if all goes well).

Congrats @Cythera your game is Not Bad!

... That said, I'm also not terribly impressed. It takes a while for the game to really like, get going - nor am I a big fan of the characters. Tony & Woo's had the same impression I had when playing the first demo of your game. I dunno, Origin Hunt is just kinda missing that special sauce.

All of the little custom menu work is neat, but I think I'm also starting to come down with "Sick of the same 5 RTP sound effects used in every game" syndrome too. Makes me super duper glad I took the time to make custom SFX, especially for the menus.

Wooo!

I see now why you are called Wooo The Badman.

 

[Cythera]

What is up with that title card image?! What is that - oh, oh it's bread. I get it. Haha
Alrighty, let's get started ^-^ I'm just going to comment random thoughts as I go along, and hopefully don't have to pull my axe out the closet at the end

Spoiler

• I don't know how to put videos or gifs on itch - I'm sorry >.> I know, I'm silly
• The game is packaged to protect some of the assets. I have paid resources and plugins(not to mention, I really don't like people poking around in my work) so out of respect to the creators, I wrapped the game files. Yes, I know it's not unbreakable. But it's enough of a deterrent for the incompetent, and the competent, well...even AAA games get their stuff stolen eventually.
• Nope, Half-Bred is intentional But now all I can think of is bread...guess I got a new transmog battler to draw
• Yes, Jabroni, I'm half European. There's a joke in there about half-bred for sure
• AP is introduced later. I introduce core mechanics bit by bit, so I don't overwhelm players. I sadly can't figure out how to hide AP from the menu until then; if you have any suggestions on this, that'd be great!
• The Relic not being a story piece.... I'm not remarking on this; I just find the comment extremely funny!
• Ah yes, 28-24, the moment ya'll realize the protag is complete dummy
• I altered some code so more Willpower decreases your Mana Costs. Not a huge amount, but enough to give some extra value to the stat
• The wolf AI is geared to gang up on a single target - usually the one with the lowest HP. Pack mentality and all :3 It's unlucky they targeted Mara; Vincent could have easily tanked them, but their AI did as expected
• I REALLY like your idea of having passives show up in the mouse-over display after using Insight. I'm gonna look to implement that
• You editing out Cecilia's entrance hurts my soul. In case you didn't see my profile picture, Cecilia is my fav character
• 'Note the monster icon' yeahhhhh, that's some foreshadowing ^-^
• Givers throw nearly any item in the game; yes you get that item. Givers drop massive exp and AP if you kill them. They also run after 5 turns I wanted to put a pleasant twist on the mimic trope. Just guard and enjoy your loot
• I drew the player battlers actually ^-^ I used Hine's larger SV base, and drew all the clothes, hair, weapons, etc on top

Overall, and this can be used in response to you too @RCXGaming :
Origin Hunt is a slow-burn game. I completely agree it takes a lil to pick up - as I want it to. The final playtime will be around 50 hours. In those 50 hours, I want the world to feel like it's moving and changing alongside - and because of - your actions.
I trim early-game dialogue as I can, but there are just some things I need to have said. Believe me, compared to the very first build, it's way better now ._. One thing that helps me reword and retime dialogue is seeing player reactions to it. I'm coming into game dev as a novel writer, so yeah, the transition from having hundreds of pages to enwrap my audience in to just a few message boxes? Big adjustment. I think I can make some positive changes now tho.

I wish you could have gotten to see some more of the core mechanics. I hold back until you get the full party. Then you get to play with their team synergy, and better enemy AI and abilities. Finding that sweet spot in balance is tough. Too hard, and players quit. Too easy, and well, this happens. 'Where mechanics?'

This is my first game. I didn't set out to make anything ground-breaking. I wanted to make your standard RPG with some good characters and some good combat. It's unfortunate you didn't get to see the full potential, but that just tells me I need to spice up the early-game to match the mid and end game. Put more of my best and favorite features in sooner, to give more reason to keep going

 

[woootbm]

Thanks for the response! Lemme dig at a few things here:

The game is packaged to protect some of the assets

I guess this is more protective than using the built-in encryption? As you say, people will crack it no matter what if they really want to. So I would think the encryption is better?

Nope, Half-Bred is intentional But now all I can think of is bread...guess I got a new transmog battler to draw

Glad to inspire, heh. I guess I'd have to get further in to figure out why!

AP is introduced later. I introduce core mechanics bit by bit, so I don't overwhelm players. I sadly can't figure out how to hide AP from the menu until then; if you have any suggestions on this, that'd be great!

Hm, I might suggest just not giving the player AP until after the tutorial (and giving them a bunch for free to catch them up). That's the simplest answer I can think of.

I altered some code so more Willpower decreases your Mana Costs. Not a huge amount, but enough to give some extra value to the stat

I'm still curious about this comparison interface. Am I ignorant of something obvious? Also the fact that it displayed a reduction as a positive was new to me.

I REALLY like your idea of having passives show up in the mouse-over display after using Insight. I'm gonna look to implement that

Wooo! I did an advice! I actually thought of another way to do this with even more QoL:

0. You'll need Yanfly passive states and Buffs core or some equivalent plugins.
1. Insight places a fluff state on enemies. This state is invisible and does nothing (or maybe there's a way to check skill use?)
2. Each enemy has a passive state with a Custom React Effect on it: when the enemy receives the fluff state, a switch is turned on.
3. Each enemy has a passive state that only activates when the switch is turned on. This state stores all the elemental and other enemy data in its description.

So you'd have to make two states and a switch for every single enemy, but by using a switch you could Insight an enemy once and that data state would show every time a player encounters this enemy from now on. As a bonus, if you have the targeting plugin you can make the data state also make the enemy un-targetable by Insight so players don't recast it by mistake.

This is kind of a lot of work, though. Sorry!

You editing out Cecilia's entrance hurts my soul. In case you didn't see my profile picture, Cecilia is my fav character

Yeah, sorry about that. We did notice the profile pic. We got to a point where we wanted to start skipping ahead to see more systems, and I've felt that showing me mashing the skip text button feels like we're bashing the game (I mean, we were bashing Albino Hunter but it feels unfair). So we started skipping but then there ended up being a couple things we stopped to comment on so we kinda screwed up the whole concept

Givers throw nearly any item in the game; yes you get that item. Givers drop massive exp and AP if you kill them. They also run after 5 turns I wanted to put a pleasant twist on the mimic trope. Just guard and enjoy your loot

Yeah, we thought it was a pretty cool concept. We were past the timer and trying to see one last thing so were trying to run to the next objective, but it still got in the video cuz I wanted to show it!

The final playtime will be around 50 hours.

This is my first game.

Well, it's even more impressive as a first game! And the 50 hours thing explains a lot. That's the oooold pitfall we all get caught in trying to make the next Final Fantasy on our first game, heh. I'm personally shooting for maybe 20, but the golden path will be like 4 or less. I eat a lot of the player's time with slow combat

Definitely a lot of ambition! Maybe don't do my state idea this time. Adding more and more to the scope is how games never get finished!

 

[Cythera]

I guess this is more protective than using the built-in encryption? As you say, people will crack it no matter what if they really want to. So I would think the encryption is better?

The built-in encryption doesn't do certain resources, like plugins. I can't say if one is better than the other - I'm not that techy - but this is what I use since it wraps up everything from sight. I know some people here in the forums have made encryption plugins, but I fear incompatibility with those. Might be worth looking at tho?

I'm still curious about this comparison interface. Am I ignorant of something obvious? Also the fact that it displayed a reduction as a positive was new to me.

OH. The actual interface! It's SRD equip comparison plugin, with some adjustments in the plugin settings. Every game should have something like this in my opinion.

Wooo! I did an advice! I actually thought of another way to do this with even more QoL:

0. You'll need Yanfly passive states and Buffs core or some equivalent plugins.
1. Insight places a fluff state on enemies. This state is invisible and does nothing (or maybe there's a way to check skill use?)
2. Each enemy has a passive state with a Custom React Effect on it: when the enemy receives the fluff state, a switch is turned on.
3. Each enemy has a passive state that only activates when the switch is turned on. This state stores all the elemental and other enemy data in its description.

So you'd have to make two states and a switch for every single enemy, but by using a switch you could Insight an enemy once and that data state would show every time a player encounters this enemy from now on. As a bonus, if you have the targeting plugin you can make the data state also make the enemy un-targetable by Insight so players don't recast it by mistake.

I think I have an easier way to do this
I have other things I want to do first though. This'll sit on the back burner for a little bit.

Well, it's even more impressive as a first game! And the 50 hours thing explains a lot. That's the oooold pitfall we all get caught in trying to make the next Final Fantasy on our first game, heh

Definitely a lot of ambition!

I never aimed for that time; it's just what the game is going to end up being around. I don't understand when devs say 'I want a game that's at least X hours long!' Well...no. The game should be however long it needs?

Anyways! No matter what anyone says, I'm super proud of the game I've made ^-^ Thanks for pointing out some areas of improvement!

 

[TheAM-Dol]

I hold back until you get the full party. Then you get to play with their team synergy, and better enemy AI and abilities. Finding that sweet spot in balance is tough. Too hard, and players quit. Too easy, and well, this happens. 'Where mechanics?'

If I had to pick the lesser of two evils, I would say you chose right.
It's not uncommon for me to encounter other RM games where the dev dumps you into a world and just says "figure it out", and maybe the game is easy, but without any information at all, it feels like an unfair difficulty slog.
Most JRPG's tend to continue to tutorialize new information deep into the game's run time, which is ideal for learning abstract concepts. Usually the learning process starts with being informed, then the student experiments with that new information, before finally coming to competency with the information. That's 3 steps to the learning process, and depending on what it is exactly that is being taught (and who the student is) it can take awhile for that stuff to finally click. Feeding them more information when the previous thing hasn't clicked yet can create confusion. That's all to say; spacing things out helps give time for players to come to terms with your game, even if it makes the pacing feel slow.

Basically: You did the right thing. You just need to keep in mind that Wootbm and my own streaming formats don't lend themselves to this kind of thing very well because we play the game on a timer which for videos is a lot of time, but for games usually is too short of a time. For future reference, however, it may be worth considering starting off with an interesting hook at least. If you're a novelist then you should know this
A tried-and-true method of hooking the players at the start (though admittedly, I'm not a fan of this) is start them off with everything and make them feel like gods, then some event happens and everything gets taken away from them. I generally advise not taking things away from players unless you are deliberately punishing them, because taking things away from people feels worse than never having received said thing in the first place. But, like I said, despite that short-coming, it is effective as a hook.

 

[woootbm]

Here's a new episode!



This week we cover @SGHarlekin 's game, Dungeon Rummage - Rise of the Allies.

Two exciting first time events: our first game jam game review and- more importantly- the first time Jabroni Tony steps in to play for a bit!

That's right, yours truly was jobbing hard at the whole "pushing buttons" thing and I had him step in to take a crack at it. Next time we'll get him set up properly on OBS so his capture can be better.

 

[Starmage]

Hello woootbm! Oh my! I'm quite nervous to request an Lp review, but I would be happy if you could review my recently completed game (it's about 2-3 hrs long)

Stellar Bewitching:

RMMZ - Stellar Bewitching

Trailer: Story: Screenshots: Download: Features: - Fast-paced turn-based battles - Secret boss fight - Fun-filled adventure

forums.rpgmakerweb.com

Honestly, I would be happy for some feedback and just overall see someone LP it! xD <3 Thanks so much!

 

[woootbm]

@Starmage well, we don’t really do longplays, we just play for around an hour. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. I also get the impression I should double check if you are okay with our vibe. We tend to be very harsh and that can be a turn off for many dev’s.

If you’re okay with all that, we can give it a shot. Next week is a devlog and then we have another submission and then another dev log, but we could get you in after that.

 

[Starmage]

@Starmage well, we don’t really do longplays, we just play for around an hour. Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. I also get the impression I should double check if you are okay with our vibe. We tend to be very harsh and that can be a turn off for many dev’s.

If you’re okay with all that, we can give it a shot. Next week is a devlog and then we have another submission and then another dev log, but we could get you in after that.

Ohh its perfectly okay if you wish to do an hour or so only for the game And awww I understand u guys give hard critic, which is why I ill try to take it as best as I can if it means I get some feedback for some improvements as well , ppl giving my previous game harsh critic was what made it the way it is now with the improvements ^_^ So ill be ready hopefully hahah! Thanks so much for considering <3

 

[woootbm]

Ah, a nice break from them long videos. Here's a dev log:

 

[RCXGaming]

Ah, a nice break from them long videos. Here's a dev log:

Oh hey, someone else who had the same idea as me regarding attaching specific colors to icons! This is something a lot of devs glance over but it's such an important part of UI design in regards to keeping everything consistent.

In my case, colors mean different things between items and skills:

Combat in my games revolve around an element system, so skill icon colors are 99% of the time based on the element of the skill being used. The 1% exception is when it's something weird, like an attack that uses 4 normal attack hits and then follows up with a magic attack.

This also bleeds into states, as there are quite a few states assigned to specific elements (eg. Luna attacks often inflict sleep/confusion/berserk/charm, so they have the same pink border and so on)

Items, however, have this hierarchy going on with their icon colors:

(Key Items → Weapons → Armors → Regular (eg. consumable/battle) Items → Money / Loot --> Material)

Weapons and Armors are set up the way they are because I think it's aesthetically pleasing in the Equip Screen to have one red icon to signify the weapon while all of the armor pieces are blue.

Each item type is assigned a chest color so the player can immediately identify what they're going to get before they even get it. Likewise, the only exceptions are when the item is really, really weird in function.

Though after watching your video I'm kinda hitting myself for not thinking of separating icon colors for weapons into "physical" and "magical" since some weapons are better for mage builds than not.

 

[wilpuri]

Hmm… seems interesting. My first game will be completed early summer. I’m tempted to send it for this pummeling.

 

[woootbm]

@RCXGaming Glad to see someone doing a similar thing! I kinda realized this video would be extra boring not only because it's something unflashy/unexciting, but it's extra thought and effort on a tertiary feature. Not only do a lot of dev's struggle to care about such features, but RM dev's especially since so many don't put extra thought and effort into their primary features!

@wilpuri You know as much as I warn people about our harshness I really should boast our usefulness. As a dev myself, it is insanely helpful to see an actual recording of someone playing your game and reacting to it. It's just a matter of the dev finding the ability to parse what feedback is and isn't useful, and gain a thick skin. I always point out that we may be tough, but the gaming public is way tougher.