Would you buy a game like this? If so, what do you think it should be priced at?

[Tamina]

Not really, because the art is the first thing people see when they browse for games to buy. And as I've said before, if I see RTP in a commercial game, it's an automatic skip for me.

And my point is that only people on these forum will have the reactions that you have. I've asked many players outside of RM community about their opinion on a well mapped RTP screenshot v.s other pixel art asset packs screenshot, most of the time RTP is not at an disadvantage when they are being compared side by side.

There are some exceptions, for example Refmap tilesets from 2k3 may have more marketing advantage over RTP because it has high quality. Otherwise RTP isn't at an disadvantage if your target audience isn't in RM community.

Anybody familiar in even the slightest with RTP will very likely skip if your game has RTP;

So people in RM community. My point stands.

If your projects goal is to sell the game to people in RM community only, then yeah, don't use RTP. If your target audience is mainly people outside of RM community, they don't care.

There are plenty of free to play projects found on these forums that have unique mechanics.

Which game, may I ask?

RM isn't an engine with flexibility, it's more like a framework with mechanics already designed by someone else. It's very very difficult to create mechanics that are too different from defaults RM mechanics, since at that point you may as well use a different engine.

As a result, overwhelmingly majority of RM game are either RPG/adventure/3rd person action(and a crappy one): none of these genre are something that has never been done by someone else.

This is why indies go with a retro look, like 8-bit graphics. Because it doesn't require mad artist skills or huge time investment to create themselves, while still giving their game a unique look to draw in people.

Retro look doesn't automatically draw in people. Retro look with good art does.
Ive seen tons of indie game with a retro look that doesn't look appealing in anyway, then I'd just close the store page as fast if not faster than most RTP projects if the game mechanics isn't unique.

You're first going to need to convince people scrolling through a store page to click on your game to check what it's all about.

When they scroll through a store page, marketing art matters the most, past that point the short description matters more, then it's screenshots, then trailer.

Before they reach the screenshot phase, all games have equal chance to get none RM community members attention. You aren't going to tell which game uses RTP which doesn't before you click on the title. No need to attack RTP if someone doesn't click on a title.

It's easy to mistakenly think that RM community is the center of the world and the only place to advertise your game, so RTP is the sole culprit if the game doesn't sell. this isn't true if your game has drastically different mechanics from everything else. But then may as well not use RM.

If you use RM your game will likely be 2D RPG or variations of it(like adventure), then you'll have to advertise your game to people that like 2D RPG/adventure games: aka people in RM community. Then they'll likely see RTP somewhere before because this is the type of games that they like. That isn't RTPs fault, it's the issue with limited target audience.

If you use RM to create something like a real time strategy or MOBA game and advertise it to people in RTS or MOBA community, RTP will probably look new and refreshing to them because these kind of game normally aren't done in RM, so they aren't going to see RTP anywhere.

So it's really the mechanics limitations that's stopping RM projects from reaching target audiences outside of RM community. Then why bash RTP? On unity there are just as many overused assets. It's common to use premade assets for indie game development.

They're the 0,00001% of people who happen to be good enough at art, sound, programming etc to deliver the full package,

Human fall flat is a pure mechanics based game that was successful because of mechanics.

You game doesn't need to be good at every aspect to be successful. It's kind of unfortunate that game designers tend to forget about that and chase for things like "custom art" endlessly. Gameplay>>>>>all.

And I said that with an artist background. If an artist like me see more values in game design than art, I doubt most players will put art on the higher priority than game design.

 

[Milennin]

And my point is that only people on these forum will have the reactions that you have. I've asked many players outside of RM community about their opinion on a well mapped RTP screenshot v.s other pixel art asset packs screenshot, most of the time RTP is not at an disadvantage when they are being compared side by side.

So people in RM community. My point stands.

Your point doesn't stand, because the thread asks whether I would buy it, and I would not.

RM isn't an engine with flexibility, it's more like a framework with mechanics already designed by someone else. It's very very difficult to create mechanics that are too different from defaults RM mechanics, since at that point you may as well use a different engine.

As a result, overwhelmingly majority of RM game are either RPG/adventure/3rd person action(and a crappy one): none of these genre are something that has never been done by someone else.

You are mistaking mechanics for genres. You can make games within those genres with different mechanics. Not that you need to make something people have never seen before to become successful. Certain things are popular because people like to see them, and search for new games that have stuff they are familiar with. It's all in the execution.

Retro look doesn't automatically draw in people. Retro look with good art does.
Ive seen tons of indie game with a retro look that doesn't look appealing in anyway, then I'd just close the store page as fast if not faster than most RTP projects if the game mechanics isn't unique.

Which is why I said it shouldn't look awful.

If you use RM to create something like a real time strategy or MOBA game and advertise it to people in RTS or MOBA community, RTP will probably look new and refreshing to them because these kind of game normally aren't done in RM, so they aren't going to see RTP anywhere.

So it's really the mechanics limitations that's stopping RM projects from reaching target audiences outside of RM community. Then why bash RTP? On unity there are just as many overused assets. It's common to use premade assets for indie game development.

You just said RPG Maker isn't a flexible engine that's difficult to create mechanics for outside the genre it's made for. Why are you even mentioning RTS and MOBA? Those are like the last 2 genres you'd consider making in an RPG Maker engine if you have a shred of sanity in you, lol.

Human fall flat is a pure mechanics based game that was successful because of mechanics.

You game doesn't need to be good at every aspect to be successful. It's kind of unfortunate that game designers tend to forget about that and chase for things like "custom art" endlessly. Gameplay>>>>>all.

And I said that with an artist background. If an artist like me see more values in game design than art, I doubt most players will put art on the higher priority than game design.

If your game has bad graphics, you'll need to find ways to market it to overcome that flaw. It's like choosing to put in more effort in making your game look good so you don't have to do all the work in your marketing, or the other way around.
I'm not responding to this as a developer. I do so from a customer perspective. If I browse the store and see default assets, I pass. Visuals are an important aspect of the experience. If a game asking for my money to play it lacks that aspect, I simply won't even consider buying it.

 

[Tamina]

Your point doesn't stand, because the thread asks whether I would buy it, and I would not.

You answered for your own opinion, as well as everyone else's opinion:

I don't see why anybody would pay for an RTP game, unless it's their first time playing an RPG Maker game?

You made an assumption that everyone cares about RTP as much as you.

Truth to be told, a player that normally don't play tycoon games probably won't pay for this game, RTP or not. "Using RTP" has no relevance when it comes to buying decisions unless that person actually plays tycoon game.

You are mistaking mechanics for genres. You can make games within those genres with different mechanics.

Perhaps I didn't word it correctly. Yes you can make games within those genres with different mechanics, but it's incredibly difficult with RM because the basic framework has been made.

Which is why I said it shouldn't look awful.

And my point is that majority of "custom assets", either commissioned or from the packs, does no look better than RTP.

For example, if your sci-fi rpg looks like this:


Then I will buy your sci-fi RPG just for your art even if your design is mediocre.


But most of the time, this is the screenshot of your typical sci-fi RPG with paid assets:



Take off the "RTP is bad" glasses, do you really think this looks objectively better than RTP? Yeah it looks different, but not better, nor good enough that I will immediately buy it regardless of the design.

If your game theme actually needs a style different from RTP(like sci-fi, mature, dark) then removing RTP makes a lot of sense. If your theme is totally in line of RTP style, spending $10k worth of money for something "different but not better" is not the best use of your money. You will have a much better game if you send the $10k on writing/plugin/design/QA instead.

This is the main point that I'm trying to make. You are free to feel a game doesn't worth your money if they have RTP, but I highly doubt changing the RTP in a game to another mediocre looking assets will change your mind about your perceived value of it. I think you give "custom assets" too much value than it actually has.

You just said RPG Maker isn't a flexible engine that's difficult to create mechanics for outside the genre it's made for. Why are you even mentioning RTS and MOBA? Those are like the last 2 genres you'd consider making in an RPG Maker engine if you have a shred of sanity in you, lol.

i didn't suggest RTS and MOBA dev should use RM as the engine, I said "none RM players(like people who normally play other genre such as RTS/MOBA) will likely never see RTP anywhere.

Your opinion that people will automatically hate RTP only applies to small group of people who plays tons of 2D indie JRPG or hentai game. If you make a game target for a completely different target audience they will not be familiar with RTP.

It's like choosing to put in more effort in making your game look good so you don't have to do all the work in your marketing, or the other way around.

You give custom assets way too much credits when it comes to marketing . Custom assets don't automatically market your game unless it's really, really good, like industry top 1% kind of good.

If your artist has more than 40k followers on instagram, or if you are able to make above average salary as an artist in past 10 years, then you'll probably have a good chance to market your game with your art.

If you only have $10k or less budget on all the art asset for a 40hr long RPG, you'll probably just get assets that's not better than RTP. And if your target audience is primarily people outside of RM community, your investment will likely not have the best return.

Say if your game has 100 potential buyer, 10 of them are in RM community and 90 of them are not. If you use RTP, you still have 90 people that will potentially buy your game. Now if you spend $10k worth of money to remove RTP, you only add 10% more people to the "potential buyer" list. But your overall game writing, design, art quality may be reduced which makes it harder to get the remaining 90 none RM players attention. Nevermind the fact that you won't have anymore remaining budget for marketing. If you want to market your game, you probably have much better return on using normal marketing methods like ads, game site, media etc.

For low budget games It seems to me that it's better to spend your money on every other aspect unless RTP style flat out doesn't work for your projects.

I'm against using RTP if your game style doesn't work well with RTP. Otherwise attacking RTP because "its RTP" makes no sense to me. There are pros and cons using it like everything else.

 

[bgillisp]

I have to interject here. In my experience there is a HUGE disconnect between what devs here say and what ACTUALLY sells on Steam. I've seen RTP heavy games sell 200,000 copies and games with heavy custom art sell 1,048 copies.

So those of you who keep saying that are a minority based on where the $$$ actually goes, based on all numbers I have so far. There have been 0 exceptions so far in all the sales data I got.

So if you want to see more games with heavy custom stuff, we need to start actually buying them

 

[ADMtn]

I would consider RTP games after looking at screenshots and reviews to scan for: attention to detail in mapping, eventing, and well-balanced combat; good writing; a user interface that isn't grating to look at (e.g., grainy menus in an otherwise smooth-looking game).

Also, though I might have said this elsewhere: I prefer RTP over low-quality custom assets. While I respect attempts at originality, if I had to pay for a game or play it for a prolonged period of time, I'd rather not be looking at mismatched art or art I probably could have made on MS Paint when I was in the 6th grade.

As for the Tycoon game, I probably wouldn't pay for it. Not really my go-to genre (I've played Sim City and Themepark and enjoyed both, but...). If it were free to play with ads or optional micro transactions (and had good reviews and screenshots), I would give it a try.

 

[CraneSoft]

People tend to buy games for 3 reasons: 1) It interests them 2) They saw their friends play it and decide to try it out as well. 3) It was infamous for being incredibly ****ty.
Whether a game is actually RTP or custom assets definitely do not affect sales numbers - the latter is simply an extra thing you put on the table to say "I'm different!", but if said custom assets are something made out of MS Paint or looks like some amateur's DeviantArt gallery, you will not likely convince anyone to buy. And if you are aiming for players used to RPGMaker, using only RTP won't win you any points either - there are many factors that could affect sales that listing them would be a moot point.

I have higher expectations in RM games than in AAA games, at the very least, I do want to see attractive custom character artwork in games so you can get me to start clicking on your screenshots, and that's Step 1. If you pass that I'll start to read about what your game is about and look into any of the gameplay footage you have to offer, followed by trying out a playable demo. If I am interested, then I'll start considering whether or not to buy your small indie game instead of buying a well-received AAA with 10x times more content. Most games don't pass Step 1.

 

[jkweath]

I have to interject here. In my experience there is a HUGE disconnect between what devs here say and what ACTUALLY sells on Steam. I've seen RTP heavy games sell 200,000 copies and games with heavy custom art sell 1,048 copies.

So those of you who keep saying that are a minority based on where the $$$ actually goes, based on all numbers I have so far. There have been 0 exceptions so far in all the sales data I got.

So if you want to see more games with heavy custom stuff, we need to start actually buying them

I've also seen a few RTP games that have much larger sales numbers than you'd expect (though I doubt any of them have hit over 200,000 copies - if you're going of SteamSpy, it's super inaccurate. I know from experience).

But those games usually have one of three qualities: 1, they hit the market *before* the flood of RTP games (and before people began associating "RTP" with "bad game"; 2, they serve a niche outside of "fantasy jRPG" (one game in particular I've seen uses almost all MV RTP, but it teaches people how to read Japanese, so it's sold quite well), or 3, they're porn games.

Personally I'd love to see an RTP game released in the last couple years that has more than 100 Steam reviews (I find reviews to be a better metric of overall sales).

All that said, I myself have been looking to challenge the RTP stigma. One thing I've wondered recently is if RPGMaker RTP games usually sell poorly due to not having a strong target market and not necessarily due solely to the graphics. Most RTP games fall under the "traditional fantasy jRPG" category, which--while it seems like high-budget fantasy jRPGs can usually find an audience--low-budget jRPGs usually just... don't? Or can't? Sure there's a captive jRPG audience at Aldorlea, as we're both aware of, but that audience is nowhere near large enough for a dev to make a living off of.

I recall a post on this board that had a really good argument for why most RPGMaker games don't sell (you've probably read it already), and I'm wondering if having busts and art illustrations--alongside having a romance story--will help my next game sell despite it being nearly 95% MZ/MV Trinity RTP.

 

[bgillisp]

Some of it too is the market is just glutted. There are games not just made in RPGMaker that have flopped badly in sales. I read an article by a dev of a game that had sold in the single digits on steam, and it was not a RPGMaker game or an Unity asset flip. I wish I had saved it though but I didn't.

Sadly it is always an issue. I read the blog posted by the CRPGAddict where he is trying to play all RPGs in order (hes on 1992 right now),and he played a shareware game from that time period and registered it, and the author said that as the first copy he ever sold, ever. So its not just unique to now too.

Also jkwealth, I've seen many indie games in the last year with < 10 reviews...in all engines. I bought a couple in the sale that started on Steam that I'd had on my wish list for a year that are at 5 reviews. Sadly not everyone bothers to write a review so to even get 100 reviews you probably would have to sell 10,000 or so, minimum.

 

[Indinera]

<<I find reviews to be a better metric of overall sales>>

Anything is better than Steamspy which is absolute rubbish.
Still, review count is wildly unreliable. Big variance there from one game to the other, and from what I've heard others report.

 

[bgillisp]

Plus one factor to consider. Some (like me) wait until they finish a game or give up on it to write the review, but they have a huge backlog and probably just got the game intending to play it someday. That will skew the review numbers badly right now, and you can easily get 10,000 sales and only 5 reviews that way as maybe only 100 have played and finished your game, 5 bothered to review, and the other 9,900 its in their backlog.

 

[jkweath]

Some of it too is the market is just glutted. There are games not just made in RPGMaker that have flopped badly in sales. I read an article by a dev of a game that had sold in the single digits on steam, and it was not a RPGMaker game or an Unity asset flip. I wish I had saved it though but I didn't.

Yep, I recall on Twitter awhile back a person who was lamenting that a game they'd worked for 4 years on (I think it was a 2D top-down shooter about penguins or something), sold less than 10 copies on its release day.

I think, as it gets easier and easier to make and release indie games, that more people are learning that selling games is more about marketing and putting yourself out there than the game itself. To sell anything, you need to not just get the word out about your product--but people need to get hyped enough to actually want to buy it, too. If you put yourself out there and no one's interested, it could be that you're not trying hard enough... Or it could just be that your product (game) just isn't exciting.

I follow a few RPGMaker devs on Twitter, and some of them have games that have legitimately built hype. If those games are ever released--Lawmage Academy, Ephemeral Tale, and Legends of Astravia are the ones I can think of right now--IMO they will break the mold. Not many indie games can do that anymore.

Still, review count is wildly unreliable. Big variance there from one game to the other, and from what I've heard others report.

You're right, though I've found that the ratio of reviews-copies sold for me has actually been somewhat stable across my games. Most of my games on Steam have between 10-12 reviews, and coincidentally they're all very close in revenue.

But after all the times I've seen you talk down Steamspy and I've always been like, "hey, I'm sure it's at least a little accurate, right?", it turns out that you're right. It lists Knight Bewitched as having up to 20,000 owners. The actual number is only around 1/4 of that. It's not even a good estimate! /shrug

 

[PixeLockeT]

I love RPGs and I love Tycoon games, so yes I'd probably buy it. The story/characters/writing quality and mechanics would be what gets me to stick to it, though. It doesn't have to reinvent the wheel, just needs to be interesting!

I'm a veteran gamer (gaming for almost 33 years now) so gfx don't matter much to me. XD

 

[Tamina]

Personally I'd love to see an RTP game released in the last couple years that has more than 100 Steam reviews (I find reviews to be a better metric of overall sales).

Here you go:

This is a 2020 game with nearly 300 reviews.

One thing about RTP game is that it doesn't need to sell nearly as many copies to break even.

Assuming an indie developer's salary is 15/hr minimal wage(I know most solo developer make their game on their spare time so they didn't add their own salary in their project budget estimate, but I strongly encourage any commercial developer do so to have a good idea on how successful the project is)

A 10 hr RTP rpg that takes 1000 hr of development time would need to have a budget of $15000.

If the price of the game is $6, this RTP game only needs to sell 3583 copies to break even including 30% steam sales cut.

Now if this same game uses complete custom asset, according to one of the post that I've read, a full set of custom tileset professionally made cost $18000. The budget quickly inflate to $33000 total. You need to sell 7916 copies to break even, that's more than 100% sales target increase.

So it isn't fair to call RTP game a failure even if it sales less than a none RTP game, because a none RTP game needs to sell more than double amount of copies to break even.

 

[jkweath]

@Tamina I forgot about that one!

I am curious about one thing concerning that game, though--I noticed that it has two languages, English and Russian. I wonder how well the Russian translation (or is it Russian by default with an English translation) helped its sales. I noticed quite a few reviews are in Russian. Regardless that game must've done something right to have sold so well despite being an RTP game.

 

[Tamina]

@Tamina I forgot about that one!

I am curious about one thing concerning that game, though--I noticed that it has two languages, English and Russian. I wonder how well the Russian translation (or is it Russian by default with an English translation) helped its sales. I noticed quite a few reviews are in Russian. Regardless that game must've done something right to have sold so well despite being an RTP game.

More languages will be beneficial, since it reaches more audiences. Japan and China has tons of anime fans, if a project is anime-y and the developer understands anime industry well enough it's probably a better investment to do Japanese/Chinese localization than custom tilesets.

I haven't play that game, but after a quick glance I'd say the entire character concept is interesting, and character design isn't terrible to look at, that would get more attention than "custom tileset". Very rarely players will pick up a game because the tileset looks different from RTP. Usually they pick up a JRPG because they like anime presentation(art, character, writing), or very different gameplay mechanics (requires heavy scripting and plugin to do). Having custom tileset is a bonus, but it's never going to be the main selling point to most players. I don't understand why RM community immediately look down upon it.

 

[ADMtn]

Usually they pick up a JRPG because they like anime presentation(art, character, writing), or very different gameplay mechanics (requires heavy scripting and plugin to do). Having custom tileset is a bonus, but it's never going to be the main selling point to most players. I don't understand why RM community immediately look down upon it.

Now that I think about it, graphics are generally all the same to me so long as the execution of the art is clean. Stylistic differences usually don't register as a big deal, because they're often similar and fall into three categories: realistic, anime, or cartoonish. Sure, there are variations to each, but they aren't significant to me (unless they're super weird, which is rare). What's more noticeable is when the art looks unprofessional and mismatched, which is often the case when RM games push custom art without a proper art budget (some people go with extremely retro art to avoid this problem, and I think it's a smart move if you absolutely need custom art but can't afford more modern-looking stuff).

When I look at games on these forums, I skip over all the words and go straight to the screenshots to see if: the mapping looks good; the art looks clean (if not RTP); the dialogue's decent; and there are any fun-looking mechanics being showcased (side PSA: if you have unique mechanics, make sure your screenshots show it off; the community here doesn't need to see another cliff overlooking a sky parallax background).

 

[Tamina]

Found another 2019 RTP game with over 360 reviews:

The concept of this game is pretty creative, made me want to buy it because it's different from everything else in the market. A good example that creative game design can make the game appealing with RTP graphics.

 

[ADMtn]

The mechanics in that game are extremely unique. Looks kind of hilarious in a good way (not sure if I"d pay that much for it, though).

The gif with her using the house as a weapon...

 

[jkweath]

@Tamina That game looks super interesting, and I think it's a perfect example of a game where I can say, "yeah, that game is clearly using RTP graphics, but it looks so cool that I almost want to buy it anyway".

Looking at the game a bit closer, it does have a couple things that make it stand out from other RPGMaker games (besides the unique mechanic): For one, the game is translated into five languages, and two, it was published by a company called DWANGO. Apparently it was originally a free web browser game as well.
There's no way to tell, but I think these two factors play a *much* bigger role in the game's success than we might believe. In my opinion, if this game were self-published by a westerner in English only, it would have still performed better than the average RTP game, but nowhere near how well it is now.

Of course, none of that invalidates the game's success or the fact that it's a financially successful RTP game. It's just worth noting that this game looks to be far beyond the production value of your average RTP game. If anything, the RTP graphics are part of the gimmick and might even be helping its sales instead of hurting it.